An interesting guy who always has an opinion, 12Clicks is one of the original, old school players of online adult. Although 12Clicks has made a move to mainstream, he's kept a presence in the industry. He owns Standard Internet. He plans to make a big, perhaps obnoxious, comeback (we can hope) into the business he loves in the very near future. He's someone to keep track of.

Pictures complements of Fubar - check it out the photo archive of all webmaster events!


GFY Ambush Interview thread on 12Clicks

Question #1
Rumor has it if you didn't shave you'd be called 15Clicks? How did Serge give you this name?

well, first of all, the aspersions cheaters used to cast my way were that we didn't pay. The shave thing was never something we were accused of except by a few people who didn't know what a 12 hour unique was and wanted to know why, even though they clicked their link 10 times, they only got credit for one click. The Serge story is an old one that will probably bore people with the re-telling but here it is. When I first started in this biz, I ran freesites. Upon the creation of my first site, I was able to do business with the mighty serge because I was a friend of Mojo's. At the time, Serge would rant on the boards about not wanting small timers in his program. Anyway, I get his codes, put them up and send him very very little traffic. After all, my only traffic source at the time was a couple charity links from mojo. This was literally my first two weeks of getting my first free site up. Then we get wind of a webmaster get together that Mark Tierra and possibly Sammi from Sammi's hot bucks was putting together in north jersey. We go, Serge shows up, Mojo introduces me as "big Ron" my board name at the time. Serge looks up and goes,"AAAA, of course I know big ron 12 clicks" making fun of my daily click volume. I then started using it on the boards as "big Ron 12clicks" and then shortened it to 12clicks. On a side note, if someone could ply the people at Ynot with drinks or common sense and get them to post archives of those early board days, it would be a real eye opening education on how this biz got its start.

Question #2
How did you go from roofer to sophisticated food and wine connaisseur?

uh, porn of course! hahahaha I've always enjoyed fine dining, even as a roofer but obviously, more money and travel exposed me to higher and higher levels of decadence. The wine thing just came about because I wanted to be able to handle the public situation of ordering wine properly for my dinner guests. It then lead to me appreciating and collecting. Now I'm just a drunken wino. My cellar is small but has some wines that I love including a cases of 86 margaux, 89 mouton, 96 calon segur magnums. My favorite bottles are most years of Shafer hillside select, especially the '95, most years of Peter Michael Les Pavots, and any well made Cali cab over 15 yrs old.

Question #3
Why do you like getting kneed in the crotch so much?

That fucking Jman! Its a good thing I have a small cock and he only kneed me a glancing blow to the speed bag. I mean, WTF? I don't see the guy for years at a time, I give him a hand shake, he rolls inside and bam! WWF on the show floor. No wonder he likes hanging with you so much.

Question #4
Is Mojo really gay? Talk about you relationship with him in and out of the bedroom.

Mojo and I have often been in public restrooms together and never once have I caught him looking over. I'd say he's hetero. Oh, and we've wrestled grecko roman style a few times in the office and he's never tried to press wood against me so I'm pretty sure he's safe. Mojo is a great great friend and business partner. Without him, I'd have never gotten involved with the internet so all of you 12clicks haters can blame him for my existance. He's extremely smart (there are very few times when he's not the smartest one in the room), sees the big picture, always sees several steps down the road, great business sense, calm demeanor, or to put it another way, the exact opposite of myself. However, since opposites attract, we've done well together and in our almost 10 yr association, we have never had an argument. He's the one saying, "calm down, it means nothing" when I come into his office saying,"lets kill this mother fucker" He is the ying to my yang, the alligator shoes to my striped shirt, the frilly panties to my short skirt, the.........well, you get the idea. But one thing that seems to have gripped the minds of the trolls I'd like to refute one more time. I'm not his employee how could I be with a desk full of his naked pics?

Question #5
What did the HIV clinic say when they called with the results of your tests?

"Dodged another bullet, eh fag? One day you're going to get a bad case of botulism."

Question #6
Have you ever terminated someone from one of your programs just because you didn't like them?

oh sure. We'd get noobs who would send nasty emails because they didn't know how to put our link on their page (ctl+c, ctl+v) or they would find one of our affiliate managers on icq or phone and start ripping them a new asshole. I'd take over and say the following,"ok, I just fixed the problem for you" right after I killed their account. Then there was the memorable confrontation with Shap back when we were both younger and a little quicker to anger. He was in one of our programs, maybe blindlinks and making good money. He starts just hammering me on the boards maybe for arguing with one of his friends, I honestly don't remember. Anyway, he's just relentless and I'm like, "WTF? I'm your meal ticket" I told my people to go over his account and make sure he wasn't breaking any rules. Sure enough, he was opening us in a new window. (strictly forbidden) So now I come back with some "fuck yous" of my own, post his page and post our terms and cancelled his account. It was ugly and I'm sure we both look back and wished we hadn't done it. We both went on to bigger and better things so no biggie.

Question #7
How many cheaters do you think there really are out there?

far far fewer than there used to be, that's for sure. When pay per click died in adult, the cheaters died with it. Ok, so a lot of them jumped into adwords now. During blindlinks/rawlikesushi days, I could come in, look over the new signups that came in overnight and term 10, 15 accounts right away. It was just amazing. And then to see them get better. We're talking a time when most programs still didn't record ips for the clicks. Cheaters would just set up a hitbot and collect checks. These guys were simple to catch. Then we'd compare raw/unique ratio. You run a blindlinks program and a guy has a page with all your links on it but the guy sends 100% unique traffic to you, he gives himself away. That was a give away even after they started spoofing ips. In our search program it was even easier. Guy would make a ton of money, go to the site and he's just got a blank searchbox yet he'd have 1000 searches on "hot sex" he'd spoof the ip but forget to spoof search terms. Then they got smarter and started using term lists. Of course, we were ahead of them there too. Since we logged searches, we knew what a random search pattern would look like. you could pick out a term list in a seond. I'm fairly certain I've seen every type of cheating out there except carding (because we never dealt with signups) but I already know all the things I'll be looking for there too. its all a matter of gathering info and picking out the oddity. sorry, too wordy, I know. here's a pic of two hot men for the trouble of reading this rambley post:

Question #8
What kind of car(s) do you own?

I've never been a huge car guy, I did the SL thing for the last 2 summers but now I'm driving a 300 hemi. I also have a Navigator I know I have pics of the SL somewhere but I don't think I have any of the other 2. who would take pics of an ordinary car?

Question #9
Where did the name "rawlikesushi" come from?

I honestly don't remember how the name came about, maybe mojo remembers and will post his recollection. I know it involved us brainstorming around the idea of paying for raw traffic but thats it. Rawlikesushi was an unbelievably successful program. This came on the heels of blindlinks.com which was hugely successful as well. If I remember correctly, we payed 3 cents raw for text links and 4 cents raw for button clicks (highly clickable buttons) The volumes where just amazing and between the two programs, we had just about every webmaster in adult in one or both of them. Sending out checks at the end of the month was a major operation. Between these programs and our mainstream stuff I think we have a small room filled with cancelled checks. Even though the adult world was much smaller then, it was still a very heady time to control that much traffic, and make good money off of it. Our margins were huge.

Question #10
Who do you intiminate best?

Thanks to KK for clarifying this question. I thought it meant "intimidate" and was going to tell the story of how when we rolled out blindlinks.com we were denied a chance to bid on advertising on Ynot. You see, back then, you bid on the top banner adspace and because of the "coddle the surfer" mentality of lil Ricky and khan, they refused to allow us to bid on the spot if we were going to use it for blindlinks.com, thinking blindlinks was the bane of the industry. So, with typical gay flair, Mojo and I threw a hissy fit (with the help of Serge who at the time was making a lot of money off of us) and took our show over to netpond (it may have still been called "condomproject" back then). Ynot became a ghost town overnight. They went from being the GFY of their day to the tunafishbitch.com of their day. what that had to do with intimidation, I don't know but its an interesting story of the cutthroat things that went on back then and it was the first story to pop into my head when I saw the question. But he meant "imitate" didn't he? The person I imitate best (or worse depending on your point of view) is Brad Shaw. Back in the day, Robert and I had two other partners and the 4 of us for whatever reason, always pretended we were Brad when we would talk about him. Back then he was a good friend who we had a lot of interaction with. I don't know how it started or why but the 4 of us would use a high pitched voice that sounded like SNL's "Mr. Bill" whenever his name came up. So one year in Vegas, we take him and KK to dinner at Picasso. KK is also a long time good friend of mine. We had a great dinner listening to Brad tell us all about what he'd been up to. Talking about fishing tournaments where the all wore matching shirts, etc. etc. About half way through the night, Brad says, "so, I hear you guys do an impression of me" KK (that snitching little bitch) must have told him about it. We all respond with denials, "no, we really don't. nah, its not that good. No, we hardly ever do it" he's like, "come on guys, I know about it, its ok. let's hear it" The 4 of us look at each other, shrug, and then break out our Brad voices, regurgitating every single thing he had said at dinner. For the next hour, it was a high pitched tour de force. The 6 of us were laughing so hard we couldn't breath. And Brad was a great great sport. He was like a kid waiting to get shot with a water pistle and instead getting blasted with a fire hose. funny funny night.

Question #11
Why did you shave your mustache?

I think this thread has already covered the before and after pics. I had been thinking of shaving it for a while but hadn't really done it. I had it for longer than some of these board members have been alive. Anyway, we had gotten into the habit of eating sushi a couple days a week in yet another feeble attempt to lose wieght. So one day after a big sushi boat, not a little one but a japanese warship, I went home early 'cause I didn't feel too well. Stomach virus and sushi do not mix and after throwing my guts up, I had a problem. You know they call moustaches "flavor savors" right? well, I couldn't flavor this savor nor could I shake the smell. Off came the moustache. for good. the end.

Question #12
Have you ever been in a physical fight? With anyone in this business? Discuss what it's like to get the crap beaten out of you.

I was a pretty big fighter when I was young but haven't had a physical altercation since highschool. I've never had a confrontation with anyone in the business. I'm an adult and fighting is pretty much the act of a child. I *do* use my horn a lot in my car, does that count? I only lost one fight in my life and that really wasn't having "the crap beaten out of me" I was about 9 and a kid 3 years older than me wanted to beat up my younger brother. I stepped up, fought the kid, lost and went home and yelled at my little brother for being stupid. the end.

Question #13
Have you ever been investigated by the FTC for running spyware? Results.

Never. first, we've never run spyware. thats just another myth the trolls like to give credence to. second, we've only ever been asked for info about a company we had dealings with once. And considering all of the shinanigans going on in mainstream, I'd say thats pretty good. We did business with just about everyone. turns out a good many of them were a bit underhanded.

Question #14
What do you offer in your new program that hasn't been done before?

well, besides lining up the most sought after components of an adult program, I've got a little something that I can't talk about. It took special coding and webmasters will love it. its not earth shattering but in typical 12clicks and Mojo style, its simple yet great. stay tuned. oh, and its all thanks to modf. I said,"I want this to happen" and he waved his magic wand. as far as we know, its not offered by anyone.

Question #15
Why do you like WEGCash Cory and Captain Tender Thighs so much?

first, cory. I've always been a fan of Zimm's and we've done some mainstream business in the past so when Cory began with WEG, it was only natural for me to be supportive of him, etc. However, Cory soon showed everyone what a huge asset he is. He truly raised the bar with his professionalism, ability, and likeability. He's the perfect sales rep but so much more. Oh, and over the years, he's become a good friend and someone I enjoy spending time with. I'm sure a friend like him so steeped in the game will be an asset for me when I roll out the program. Its great knowing all of the program owners I do but knowing the operators is equally important and Cory is the best operator I know. oh, and when we meet other couples, we never have to argue about who gets who. Now Eric. kind of the same scenario as Cory but a couple of years sooner. pretty much everything I said about Cory applies to Eric too. I was friendly with lensman, we did business together and Eric was always his right hand. I used to hang with Eric at the shows and found him to be great at what he does too. These two guys are special in their ability to make people around them happy and turn them into affiliates or partners. I actually thought we were close to becoming lovers. Once in his hotel room we were both pretty drunk and...............ah, yeah. I'll save that story for the book deal.


Question #16
Name people in this business that you feel time has passed them by.

hmmm, this is a tough question. There have been many people who have disappeared over the years both big and small. People like Tropix Terry, JD DJ, Pushrod, John IP, Sammi from Sammie's hot bucks, that list goes on and on. This business has also very quietly squeezed out most of the mid level webmasters who made an ok living with freesites, tgps, etc. Now you have program operators, part timers, and a very select few in between. But I get the vibe you want me to name current names in the hope of causing trouble. Some people would say time has passed *me* by because I've been out of adult for so long but we'll see. If I make a successful return, could you really then say time has passed anyone by? perhaps, like me, they were just chasing other ventures. ok, ok, I think time has passed Serge by. hahahaha, is that what you want? I'm sure Serge is quite happy and living quite comfortably with time in adult passing him by. He certainly is only a shadow of his former self and couldn't come back with "Serge's Cash II, Electric Boogaloo" especially after this video: http://www.cecash.com/agent69/ Starring Serge, Mike AI, Sharky, Phillip Arrumbala, Brad Shaw, and more. But hey, without Serge, I wouldn't be who I am today. If you haven't seen this, you've got to watch. its a masterpiece. Who else? hmmmmm. I honestly don't know. this business eats it's weak, once time has passed you by, you disappear, you don't hang around.

Question #17
Mojo is considered a quiet humble guy. How does he feel about your public antics?

Well. maybe we can ask him to drop in here and answer that. I would guess that there may have been one or two times where my zeal has embarrassed him or he'd have wished I toned it down just a little but I'd say in general, he's ok with it. In the rough and tumble world of adult click brokering, you needed someone who isn't afraid to stomp on the necks of your enemies. I think he was ok with me being that guy. I never lie and I rarely attack (its almost always a response) thats why my friends are who they are and my enemies are who *they* are

Question #18
How does one stack bullshit 6'6?

by letting the top 2 inches fall off? I'm only 6'4" you don't really want to start talking about our figures, do you?

Question #19
What did it feel like getting kicked out of Grimshawn's party in 2003, in Hollywood, Florida?

Another industry myth. I walked into the party with Local G (the guy who actually paid for the party) and grimshawn looks up (way up) and says,"who the fuck are you?" I reply with,"who the fuck are YOU?" He says, "I'm the one throwing this party, maybe you should get the fuck out" I go, "ok" and walk out onto the balcony to drink my beer. Later, someone whispered in his ear who I was and he came out on the balcony to politely re-introduce himself.

Question #20
As a republican, what's your stand on porn and the people in this busines? As well, how do you feel about the government's present and future involvement in our industry?

well, first of all, I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative who currently votes republican because they've been the better candidate for a very long time. Because I'm not a religous person, I have no moral or ethical problem with porn or the people involved in it. duh. The government will always use the porn industry as a whipping boy for votes because its very easy to be an "anti-porn" candidate and impossible to be a "pro porn" candidate. You've got to pay attention to what the government does and continue to be one step ahead of them. I've been in this business long enough to know that it doesn't matter whether you've got a republican or a democrat in the white house, they'll both hang porn people if it is politically expedient. COPA was draw up under clinton, Max Cash was attacked by the FTC under clinton and the boogie man who was ashcroft came and went without almost a whimper. As with any business, the more adaptable to change you are, the more likely you are to succeed. Worrying about who's running the country is wasted thought.

Question #21
How many webmasters/people did you get to put the spyware install in their pages?

we never installed spyware. We did however, have a 100% legal, fully disclaimed, adware product. We ran it pretty much on our own junk traffic and you were the only one who I approached who considered doing it. Did you end up not doing it because you found someone else to do it with or did you just not do it?

Question #22
What's the difference between spyware, installs and downloads?

I think what you're asking is "what's the difference between adware, spyware, installs, and downloads?" spyware has always been illegal and is a program used to detect passwords, ids, track habits, change ref codes, etc. etc. adware is much more simple. 99% of all adware just pops a popup advertisement according to the adware's design. installs and downloads? basically the same although since most "ware" is "updateable" I guess you could call anything after the DL an install.

Question #23
Does terminology make it right? How do you feel about all the problems this has caused for people on their computers? Do you care?

Terminology is irrelevant. There is a fundamental difference in spyware and adware. however, just as people abused popups, people abused adware to the point the government had to step in. Our 100% legal adware was so innocuous, the surfer never noticed it. as with all things we do, it was done perfectly. Then you had all of the felons who make their living on the edge come in and start wrecking computers. Once that happened, we removed ourselves from that market as our reputation has always been as important to us as money. So yeah, I guess I care.

Question #24
Post pics of your house and tell us why you live there?

hmmmm, I actually don't have pics of my house. I've got a few odd shots and I'll post them but as with cars, I don't feel the need to snap pics. I had the house build in 2000. its 4800sq feet with an additional 2000 sq feet of fully finished basement. its not a mansion but it has what I need, namely a home office, basement, library, patio for grilling, big kitchen, sunroom, backs to woods, deer in the yard daily. I like it. now lets see what pics I have (they'll be totally unimpressive). here are a few shots. one of my library, two walls of books and one wall of mural. its a great room for nappin'. here's an odd shot of the patio. it looks better with the cushions out, full of drunk people eating steaks but I don't have a pic of that. lastly, here's a shot of our local deer doing their best to eat my freshly seeded back yeard years ago.


Question #25
Anyone you look up or down upon in online adult?

hmmmm, this will take me a long time to answer. who do I look up to? obviously Mojo. He's like a gentleman farmer of the internet. I don't think he's ever had an enemy even when *we've* had enemies. As I've said before, he's brilliant. Other people see that and want to be around him because of it. Being his idiot sidekick has opened many door for me. Another guy, is Ken Lawson. honest as the day is long. I used to say back in the day, "Ken is so honest, I'd trust him with my naked wife." and its true. hell of a guy. (of course, he never thought much of me, haha) Ron Cadwell is another guy who has my full respect. Much like Mojo, he's brilliant. Always entertaining and interesting at our dinners, always someone I look up to. When we used to worry about processors, I ALWAYS said, as long as one of the processors is run by Ron Cadwell, this business is in good hands. Another guy I'd trust completely. Uh, I don't think I can do a paragraph for each guy I respect in this business so let me list them. Lars, Rich Botto, Lensman, Brad Shaw, Zimm, Kjell, John Bennett, David Vander Pole (or however that dutch bastard spells it), Steve Lightspeed, Marc De, Kevin from Top Bucks, boy there's really too many to name and I'll piss some guys off by forgetting them. inout I make special room for Sweet T. Tony has always always been good to us. A good friend, generous, etc. He really at times led us noobs around vegas by the hand. I',m sure it meant nothing to him but it meant everything to us. Even when we weren't doing business with him he was always great. Thanks T. People I look down on? shit, again I know you hope I name names so let me think. Well, the obvious is pimpdog. How on earth do people do business with him. He's an immature woman hater who has no business here. Our business is dependent on woman!!!! This asshole attacks them for no reason. If you're in this business and doing business with him, you're an idiot. You can choose from so many sponsors and you choose him? its quite frankly irrisponsible. hmmmm, who else? a good number of nameless people from the AWI board. So many thieves over there that I used to call it the "traffic cheaters board" all the anon people on GFY of course. Very few people are truely anon, they've just burnt through thier other usernames. then there's chat board trolls like m00d, webby, mr.soul, confucy, peaches, and several others who pretend to be in this business just so they can spew their nonsense.

Question #26
Your thoughts on drugs, booze, all the twinks and babes you've had sex with...

I'm not a big fan of drugs. I've done my share in my youth and have many funny stories to go with it but I just think at some point you out grow it. Now, booze, now you're speaking my language. I think booze is a wonderful social lubricant. Absolutely necessary in this business filled with shut in computer geeks. (no offense to the shut in computer geeks) I've had years of fun around grey goose martinis but we all know I'm a red wine man. In slightly more than moderation, its wonderful. hahaha Twinks and babes I've had sex with? so far, I'm as pure as driven snow. Ask any women or twink who's been to my dinners if I've ever so much as undressed them with my eyes. No, the day I wake up with a roofie hang over and a sore ass will be my first.

Question #27
Why are your dinners so famous? Is this a ploy to buy friends?

My famous dinners. ok, I guess they are famous because of the good time everyone attending has. Our dinners usually consist of less than 15 people, all of them tops in our industry. The venues have always been fantastic (in a gay way) such as Picasso, Delmonicos, Le Cirque, and Smith&Wollenski's People polite enough to accept our invitation have been a who's who of the industry. Besides the people already mentioned in this thread, we've had Lensman, Ron Cadwell, Tony Morgan, Botto Brothers, JB, Mike Strouse, Shemp, Gary Kremen, Chris Mallick, Punker Barbie, Three Kisses Marie, KK, Brad Shaw, Lars, Python Aly, Loryn, Butterflied, Pornkings Carol, Jen, and Lisa, Cory, and really a host of others (again, I'll be crucified for forgetting names) but who wouldn't have a good time in that company. As far as whether its an attempt to buy friends, can you hit these people up and see if its working?

Question #28
Why do trolls get to you on GFY so much? Ego problems?

They don't get to me, however, I do think its important to slap down trolls when they raise their collective ugly heads to spew bullshit. You have trash like the now banned "rich" who used to run around calling me a thief (even though he never used my programs supposedly) then coming back as "mr.soul" and calling me a thief and referencing "all the other people who agree" like "rich" These losers build their own consensus with multiple accounts and if left unchecked or unchallenged, you wake up one day with an archive of threads calling you a cheater when its really the work of a couple of former theives who are out to get their pound of flesh for me catching them stealing. Then you have people like pimpdog who hate me for my popularity and fear my return to adult. Most people can see through his lame "you shave" nonsense but I still enjoy slapping him down. Then there's the political threads. It really worries me that all these kids firmly believe the shit they spew about conspiracies. I don't mind them but I do worry about them. I see it as an inability to think logically. As far as having an ego problem. you think I have one? I host a page full of photochops of myself, 90% of which are not flattering.


Question #29
If you could go back 10 years, what would you do differently?

I'd have bought more of the domains that were just out there for the taking, I'd have had us put a better effort into building and running an adult program seperate from our click brokerage, I'd have hit mainstream sooner And I'd have developed a TGP to keep in my back pocket for traffic. Oh, and I would have asked Lensman for a piece of the action when he first opened GFY.

Question #30
What is making you look to adult again? FTC making it too hard for you to make money in mainstream anymore?

No, actually I'm forcasting a second crash in mainstream and I have an opportunity to jump back into adult. We've always been a company that strikes where the iron is hot and moves on when the iron is cold. Look at our history, we move from free sites to click brokering blindlinks to click brokering buttons and textlinks, to mainstream blindlinks, to brokering searches, to brokering popups, to inhouse sales of cellphones, to banner ad networks, and now back to adult. And I do believe we are on an extremely short list of adult programs who, when closing their doors (blindlinks and rawlikesushi), gave a month's notice so webmasters could get their links down and paid everyone in full rather than sneak off into the night.

Question #31
What shows do you attend? Why did you continue to attend certain shows even though you were out of adult?

I generally always went to vegas though I did skip last year. We were never huge travelers but I think that will change with the launch of the program. I'm going to LA in november and that might start the travel circuit for me. In the past, I've always tried to at least go to Vegas and Miami though I've also been to montreal a couple times, vegas in november and august a couple times, Phoenix, toronto, and a few others. I still go because I have a lot of friends in the biz that I enjoy seeing. I also never really considered myself completely out of adult. Quite frankly, I was made for adult and look forward to coming back full force. Oh, and something I forgot to mention when answering the "how does mojo feel about your antics" question, My style does not fit mainstream like it does adult. I was quickly banned from every mainstream chat board I posted on. In mainstream they are WAY WAY more protective of their thieves than adult ever was.

Question #32
How did Serge and Yishai get the better of you in business?

Our relationship with Yishai was completely professional. We didn't actually have much interaction with him. We had a dispute with Serge when we decided to stop sending him traffic. He never sent the last check. Not a very big deal really and so long ago it doesn't really matter. Hell, Worldcom didn't send us our last check either and that one was for 1.5 million dollars. kinda puts Serge's check in perspective. Besides, Serge was instrumental in giving us our start. It's all water under the bridge.



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